Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

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Qwertyuiopasd
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby Qwertyuiopasd » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:21 pm

Well the point is that it's a thought experiment meant to challenge and explore what constitutes a lie, basically. Since a "lie" isn't anything more than a man-made construct, and has no physical reality or anything outside of how we define it, it can only be discussed in this way.

Not everything can be answered with empirical science, since not everything is empirical. Right tool for the right job, and all that.
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby daftbeaker » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:31 pm

Qwertyuiopasd wrote:Well the point is that it's a thought experiment meant to challenge and explore what constitutes a lie, basically. Since a "lie" isn't anything more than a man-made construct, and has no physical reality or anything outside of how we define it, it can only be discussed in this way.

Not everything can be answered with empirical science, since not everything is empirical. Right tool for the right job, and all that.

Ah, good, a waste of time :haha:
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby Rainswept » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:50 pm

daftbeaker wrote:
Qwertyuiopasd wrote:Well the point is that it's a thought experiment meant to challenge and explore what constitutes a lie, basically. Since a "lie" isn't anything more than a man-made construct, and has no physical reality or anything outside of how we define it, it can only be discussed in this way.

Not everything can be answered with empirical science, since not everything is empirical. Right tool for the right job, and all that.

Ah, good, a waste of time :haha:


Nonsense, it's good work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBIxGjSHzF8
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby PKMKII » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:26 pm

daftbeaker wrote:
Qwertyuiopasd wrote:Well the point is that it's a thought experiment meant to challenge and explore what constitutes a lie, basically. Since a "lie" isn't anything more than a man-made construct, and has no physical reality or anything outside of how we define it, it can only be discussed in this way.

Not everything can be answered with empirical science, since not everything is empirical. Right tool for the right job, and all that.

Ah, good, a waste of time :haha:


Well, not necessarily. I can see why the exact definition of a lie would be important from a legal standpoint.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection." - Henri Poincaré

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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby daftbeaker » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:37 pm

PKMKII wrote:
daftbeaker wrote:
Qwertyuiopasd wrote:Well the point is that it's a thought experiment meant to challenge and explore what constitutes a lie, basically. Since a "lie" isn't anything more than a man-made construct, and has no physical reality or anything outside of how we define it, it can only be discussed in this way.

Not everything can be answered with empirical science, since not everything is empirical. Right tool for the right job, and all that.

Ah, good, a waste of time :haha:


Well, not necessarily. I can see why the exact definition of a lie would be important from a legal standpoint.

Why? All that is necessary is to deceive someone. The precise waffling over what is and is not a lie can be safely left to philosophers when they've finished with their trees in forests.

All this is a restatement of "This sentence is a lie" (which is yet more philosophical word games without any sensible answers). If you can find a judicial case where that was important then you've got a point.
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby PKMKII » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:10 pm

daftbeaker wrote:If you can find a judicial case where that was important then you've got a point.


A case where it was important to determine if someone was lying and intended to deceive? Try every single libel case in American history.
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby daftbeaker » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:30 pm

PKMKII wrote:
daftbeaker wrote:If you can find a judicial case where that was important then you've got a point.

A case where it was important to determine if someone was lying and intended to deceive? Try every single libel case in American history.

No, a case where the statement 'this sentence is a lie' (or equivalent) was important. That is what the Pinocchio question is.

Libel is a straightforward case of deciding if someone made a defamatory statement. Nothing to do with pointless philosophical conundrums.
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby Ubi Dubius » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:11 pm

In Virginia, passing a bad check is only a crime if you use the check to induce somebody to give you something. So, if you go to pick up Chinese take out (take away in Britain, I think?), write a bad check, take your food and go, you've committed a crime - if you hadn't given the check, they wouldn't have let you leave with the food. If you sit down in the restaurant, order, eat, then write a bad check, it is not a crime (you are still, of course, liable for the debt) - even if that was your intent from the beginning. To be a crime, I would also have to know (or reasonably should have known) that I did not have sufficient funds.

Lies are directly relevent in the law when we are dealing with libel, fraud (a bad check is a type of fraud), perjury, giving false identify to a law enforcement officer, and possibly other situations I can't think of at this time. In no case is a lie actionable without other elements making it a crime or other actionable behavior. Of course, figuring out when somebody is lying is always important in the law.
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby gronank » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:36 am

How does pinocchio's nose behave with half-truths? A statement that are technically true but formulated in a context so that it decieves. What if there are several people listening where at least one did not get the true meaning of the statement but others did? If it was a lie in that case, is it still a lie if the unknowing person(s) leave?
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby Qwertyuiopasd » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:28 pm

On that same line of thinking (I think), what about sarcasm? He'd be saying something that wasn't true, strictly speaking, but in such a way that what he's communicating is perfectly intelligible and truthful. Of course, that also depends on how much the other party picks up on the sarcasm. But I would think that whether or not a statement is a lie shouldn't depend on how it's picked up, it should depend solely on the "liar" and their intent.
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby gronank » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:04 pm

Qwertyuiopasd wrote:On that same line of thinking (I think), what about sarcasm? He'd be saying something that wasn't true, strictly speaking, but in such a way that what he's communicating is perfectly intelligible and truthful. Of course, that also depends on how much the other party picks up on the sarcasm. But I would think that whether or not a statement is a lie shouldn't depend on how it's picked up, it should depend solely on the "liar" and their intent.

To take the above reasoning to the absolute limit: would pinocchio's nose grow if he was honestly misunderstood? It would seem as the core of the lie is the intent to decieve. A half-truth might as well be described as a half-lie and because it is constructed to decieve it would cause the nose to grow, even though the statement was technically true.
Disclaimer: Anything I say on topics of Politics, Economics, Pychology, History, really anything not concerned with the natural sciences and mathematics and especially topics concerning human behavior and/or thoughts, that is not associated with a proper reference is pure speculation on my part.

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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby Mad Willyum Bonney » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:00 pm

ye all b daff .

if his nos goes din he be lyin
an if it dont goe din he be nay be lyin......sheesh .
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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby ChowMein » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:55 am

I don't think we've done this one yet ..

What is weightless , but when added to a barrel full of liquid , will empty it ?

Edit: maybe this one is too easy . It stumped the class ... back in the day .
Since I can't think of another riddle at the moment I might as well leave it here .

Edit edit : okay maybe the riddle went like this instead of what I put up a moment ago .

Edit edit edit : nah ... still looks too easy , oh well .

Edit blah blah ... Then again , it looks easy to me coz I know the answer ... The rest of yous that know this one please raise your hand and recuse yourself , fank ye ye welkum .
If someone knows a more accurate rendition of this riddle , please share .

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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby PKMKII » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:32 am

A vacuum?
"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.'" - Carl Sagan

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Re: Logic, IQ, and Lateral Thinking Problems.

Postby ChowMein » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:00 am

Nope


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