So this isn't a real religion!?

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Barti Ddu
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Postby Barti Ddu » Thu May 24, 2007 4:05 pm

MPTrooper,

The bit I'd have most liked you in particular to have got from the above was that my distinction between disrespecting a faith and a person is not unjustified. If you did, maybe that aspect wouldn't 'get you' anymore (though something else probably would).

You'd also understand why I won't bite and answer 'yes' to your question because in doing so I'd be accusing you of 'living in a fog of ignorance' i.e. calling you ignorant. That's not my way.

I'm not qualified to speak for all atheists in terms of what our 'job' is. We don't have dogma that dictates an obligation to evangelize. However, I'm currently choosing to take a path I've so far avoided in 'pulling my weight' to try and lessen the odds of the annihilation of our species. I may well be mistaken (in that the religious won't blow us all up), which would be great news, but unfortunately would mean I'd have upset some people needlessly. It's also possible that my approach won't 'help' anyone anyway because right now it can appear to be so patronizing (this is something I'm currently discussing with my brother). Early days yet. Much to learn.

All things considered, I do appreciate your responding because it's all a learning process :)

BDd

MPTrooper

Postby MPTrooper » Thu May 24, 2007 8:34 pm

Again, I can't make that distinction. My Faith is every bit of who I am as where I grew up and who my parents were. I attempt to live my life as according to my Faith and therefore the two are inseparable.

In order to respect a person you must respect his beliefs even if you don't agree with them. It's called tolerance.

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Postby DAK » Thu May 24, 2007 8:51 pm

If it hasn't been cleared up yet, amongst ourselves we are atheist, but to people who actually do believe in super natural beings we are a real religion. It just depends on who you're speaking to.
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Zankou
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Postby Zankou » Thu May 24, 2007 8:54 pm

No, that's wrong sorry.


We are a group that doesn't like religion to be used as science.
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
--Adam Savage, Mythbusters


"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!"
--Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.


"Take what you can!", "Give nothing back!"
--Pirates of the Caribbean


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DAK
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Postby DAK » Thu May 24, 2007 8:55 pm

MPTrooper wrote:Again, I can't make that distinction. My Faith is every bit of who I am as where I grew up and who my parents were. I attempt to live my life as according to my Faith and therefore the two are inseparable.

In order to respect a person you must respect his beliefs even if you don't agree with them. It's called tolerance.


It's funny how you don't have to respect a person's political beliefs, but you have to respect a person's delusions.
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DAK
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Postby DAK » Thu May 24, 2007 8:58 pm

Zankou wrote:No, that's wrong sorry.


We are a group that doesn't like religion to be used as science.


That's true too.
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Zankou
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Postby Zankou » Thu May 24, 2007 9:02 pm

No, that's true.

Many of us are religous.
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
--Adam Savage, Mythbusters




"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!"
--Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.




"Take what you can!", "Give nothing back!"
--Pirates of the Caribbean




Zankou, Vice Fuhrer of The Grammar Nazis.



Click here!

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Postby EarthRise » Thu May 24, 2007 9:19 pm

Sorry, DAK. As Zank said, we are a parody religion exclusively for the purpose of protesting the teaching of religion as science. There is no common atheism among us.

And stop causing problems. Society or no, one of the main principles of this forum is tolerance and respect. So, yeah, in this forum, you need respect.
[...] the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
-Darwin

DAK
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Postby DAK » Thu May 24, 2007 9:30 pm

EarthRise wrote:Sorry, DAK. As Zank said, we are a parody religion exclusively for the purpose of protesting the teaching of religion as science. There is no common atheism among us.

And stop causing problems. Society or no, one of the main principles of this forum is tolerance and respect. So, yeah, in this forum, you need respect.


Oh...most Pastafarians I know are atheist. Also, how am I causing problems?
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EarthRise
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Postby EarthRise » Thu May 24, 2007 9:35 pm

For one, you are calling religion a 'delusion.' And despite your personal emotions on the matter of faiths, calling beliefs 'delusions' is not very respectful, now is it?

As to the atheism content, that's rather understandable. Pastafarianism has had the unfortunate tendency to be hijacked by loud internet atheistic teenagers as the 'ultimate mockery of religion.' Furthermore, one can easily perceive how an atheist might be more at home; atheists almost always will reject the teaching ID in a science classroom, whereas among the ranks of other religions, a spectrum exists from teaching only evolution to teaching only Biblical King James creationism.
[...] the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
-Darwin

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Postby DAK » Thu May 24, 2007 9:41 pm

EarthRise wrote:For one, you are calling religion a 'delusion.' And despite your personal emotions on the matter of faiths, calling beliefs 'delusions' is not very respectful, now is it?

As to the atheism content, that's rather understandable. Pastafarianism has had the unfortunate tendency to be hijacked by loud internet atheistic teenagers as the 'ultimate mockery of religion.' Furthermore, one can easily perceive how an atheist might be more at home; atheists almost always will reject the teaching ID in a science classroom, whereas among the ranks of other religions, a spectrum exists from teaching only evolution to teaching only Biblical King James creationism.


Neither is believing a book that says that I should be dead, now is it?
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EarthRise
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Postby EarthRise » Thu May 24, 2007 9:44 pm

DAK wrote:Neither is believing a book that says that I should be dead, now is it?


Now where in the Bible does Jesus Christ demand your death?

Or are you confusing Christianity as a religion with Christianity as a weapon at the hands of extremists?
[...] the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
-Darwin

Barti Ddu
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Postby Barti Ddu » Thu May 24, 2007 9:52 pm

MPTrooper.

MPTrooper wrote:My Faith is every bit of who I am as where I grew up and who my parents were. I attempt to live my life as according to my Faith and therefore the two are inseparable.


But it's still your choice to make them inseparable. Therefore if you're insulted when I insult your faith, it's as a direct consequence of your choice.

This time, suppose there's a scientist who has worked to prove some theory or other for years. If he's allowed himself to become so attached to that theory that he starts getting offended when another scientist starts coming up with stuff that would disprove his theory, would we consider the first scientist a reasonable man? Would we consider the second scientist to be disrespectful?

I'm not asking how come, historically, religion is or is viewed differently to other beliefs re. criticism. What I'm asking is in the 21st century, when it's accepted that the validity of anything accepted as knowledge can be probed, why should religion be made an exception? Why is it right that it's still taboo?

MPTrooper wrote:In order to respect a person you must respect his beliefs even if you don't agree with them. It's called tolerance.


I beg to differ - what you're referring to is 'religious tolerance'.

I have every respect (and tolerance) for anyone who's not disrespected me. Yet looking at where the world's at today, I see no reason to respect religion. I'm trying to illustrate in which way you are mistaken - that I'm not disrespecting you, but I have no qualms in talking about your religion in utterly dismissive terms if I think it's going to serve my purpose. Your own hurt that may result is entirely your own responsibility - even if you mistakenly project the cause of that hurt back at me.

BDd

MPTrooper

Postby MPTrooper » Thu May 24, 2007 11:08 pm

Barti Ddu wrote:MPTrooper.

MPTrooper wrote:My Faith is every bit of who I am as where I grew up and who my parents were. I attempt to live my life as according to my Faith and therefore the two are inseparable.


But it's still your choice to make them inseparable. Therefore if you're insulted when I insult your faith, it's as a direct consequence of your choice.

This time, suppose there's a scientist who has worked to prove some theory or other for years. If he's allowed himself to become so attached to that theory that he starts getting offended when another scientist starts coming up with stuff that would disprove his theory, would we consider the first scientist a reasonable man? Would we consider the second scientist to be disrespectful?

I'm not asking how come, historically, religion is or is viewed differently to other beliefs re. criticism. What I'm asking is in the 21st century, when it's accepted that the validity of anything accepted as knowledge can be probed, why should religion be made an exception? Why is it right that it's still taboo?

MPTrooper wrote:In order to respect a person you must respect his beliefs even if you don't agree with them. It's called tolerance.


I beg to differ - what you're referring to is 'religious tolerance'.

I have every respect (and tolerance) for anyone who's not disrespected me. Yet looking at where the world's at today, I see no reason to respect religion. I'm trying to illustrate in which way you are mistaken - that I'm not disrespecting you, but I have no qualms in talking about your religion in utterly dismissive terms if I think it's going to serve my purpose. Your own hurt that may result is entirely your own responsibility - even if you mistakenly project the cause of that hurt back at me.

BDd



Then obviously I would see no reason to continue any kind of discussion with you and ignore you and whatever points you where going to make. This isn't just me, as I know many religious people have the same viewpoint.

Why would we want to talk to some atheist who is going to belittle some of the most closely held beliefs a person can have?

You can't equate religious faith to scientific pursuits. Science can be proven or disproven quit easily. Cold hard facts can be shown as to why something is or isn't.

Faith is just that, faith. I believe that common bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ. I have no proof nor do I require any to show me that it is true. People can (and do) disagree with me, yet when they insult me or call me a “wanabe cannibalâ€￾ or some other nonsense (ha!) then I see no need to engage in a discussion with that person.

I understand that is an Atheist's biggest sore point with religion and thats fine. Just because I have faith in my God doesn't mean I can't debate. I've done that very thing on this board for a long time. I don't simply say "Cause That’s how it is!" or "Cause God said so!" I attempt to explain my position as best I can.

My biggest problem with most Atheists’ is that they assume that because I have this faith that I can't debate or that every topic I disagree with will end up in me leaving in a bitch fit quoting scripture damning people to hell.

I KNOW for a fact that I have yet to condemn anyone on this board to hell. I KNOW for a fact that I have yet to use the excuses "Because God said so!" to defend a point.

Nor have I left this board when someone asks me a question about my faith, so long as they have done so in a respectful manner, even those who will never agree with me. Hell Earth Rise is as hard core an atheist I have ever meet and I still look forward to debating with him because he's respectful of my beliefs and I do my best to show him that same respect. It doesn't mean I agree with him or him me, yet we still manage to maintain a discourse.

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Postby DAK » Thu May 24, 2007 11:27 pm

EarthRise wrote:
DAK wrote:Neither is believing a book that says that I should be dead, now is it?


Now where in the Bible does Jesus Christ demand your death?

Or are you confusing Christianity as a religion with Christianity as a weapon at the hands of extremists?


Ummm...I never said Jesus did...it's actually in the old testament. It says that anyone who breaks the ten commandments should be put to death, and I do just that every Saturday, along with almost everyone on Earth.
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